What's NEXT Ep. 6: When IoT and blockchain come together
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What’s NEXT Ep. 6: When IoT and blockchain come together

Welcome back to What’s NEXT, a podcast from Samsung NEXT exploring the future of technology. In this episode I talk with Allison Clift-Jennings, the founder of Filament, a company building blockchain-powered solutions for Industrial IoT companies.

You can listen to the full episode in the player below, or subscribe through Apple PodcastsGoogle PlayRSS, or your favorite podcast app of choice. New episodes will be released every other week.

Ryan Lawler: Thanks for joining us here at the What’s Next podcast.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Ryan Lawler: To start, how about you tell us what Filament is you guys do?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Absolutely. So, Filament is about six years old as a company, and we’re focused on this marriage of hype, which I mean by bringing the Internet of Things concept, which is fairly hype driven today in the tech scene, as well as the blockchain, which is also very hype driven. You put these together, fundamentally underneath all of the hype, there’s some sophisticated technology that we’re excited about delivering into the industrial space. The big Fortune 1000 companies of the world.

Ryan Lawler: Cool. I want to get into the hype.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Oh, yeah.

Ryan Lawler: I want to get into what’s real and what’s hype and of all that. I think that there’s a lot of fodder for conversation there. But maybe, how did you get started in this area, specifically, in this idea of the industrial Internet of Things and all these sort of connected machines?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah. We had kind of a journey to get here. We didn’t wake up one day saying this is what we want to do. Instead, we had actually, and this was six years ago in 2012, we crowd funding a project that was focused on makers and DIY enthusiasts to allow a little device to be connected and to build it on mesh network. And so, that was what we started with. And this was just a passion of mine. I was actually working down here in the city in the mission for another company and I got the hardware bug. And I said, “I have to leave because I need to do this startup.” And long story short, we crowdfunding this project, it was successfully, we raised a seed round of funding based off that. But we found that industrial customers actually wanted this more and had a bigger appetite to purchase than makers. Makers, I love them to death. I’m one myself, but they’ll buy one kit and they’ll play with it for a year. And that makes it very hard to actually build a company upon.

So, fast forward several years, we are not focused exclusively on the industrial space. Even that was kind of the first phase of our adjustment. Then wait a second phase that introduced the blockchain to solve a fundamental engineering problem that we had with the industrial IoT space we were working in.

Ryan Lawler: When you talk about connectivity and wireless connectivity of these things, and then how it gets applied to the industrial space, what was the aha moment there, and how did you find out that this was a problem that needed to be solved and you had technology that could do that?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah. We actually started getting phone calls from R&D groups in these large Fortune 1000s, which was pretty shocking for a team of like five at the time. So, we got a call from one major industrial vehicle construction company who said, “This is the R&D group at this company and we’ve been trying to build our own wireless mesh network for sensors for six months and we’ve failed. And so, our C-suite has told us to buy off the shelf. We bought a bunch of kits, yours is one of them, and we had yours running in like an afternoon. So, we want to talk to you about doing collision avoidance between vehicles on a work site.”

We’re sitting here going, “That’s awesome and terrifying, all at once. Because it’s not industrial ruggedized, it doesn’t have an enclosure. It hasn’t even been FCC certified. It’s a hobbyist platform.” But it showed us that there’s a real need for connectivity, at least at the time there was. Now it’s starting to become a little more ubiquitous. But back then, it was very, very telling just how difficult it was to connect infrastructure. So, we moved into the industrial space based off of that demand.

Ryan Lawler: Right. When you say caught the hardware bug, what does that mean? Were you a mechanical engineer, just enthusiasts?

Allison Clift-Jennings: I’ve got a computer science background. I have a degree in computer science, and the school I went to had kind of a dual engineering, electrical and computer science. It’s was a little bit more hardware focus. It wasn’t a dual degree, but it was called CSE, computer science engineering. And so, I’d tinkered with it a little bit, but always spent all my time in software. When I got the hardware bug, that was around the era where it was easy to start to get involved in microcontrollers, which traditionally is very difficult. But because of the works of like Arduino and some of these other kind of maker platforms, it became easier and easier. And so, I really wanted to actually build something with, that because it was so empowering. It reminded me of early days of programming when I felt like I could build anything and I wanted to explore that again.

Ryan Lawler: What are the needs, in terms of getting this stuff approved especially in these highly regulated industries, and making something that can be used in that environment?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah. Industrial is a completely different world than consumer, right? And that’s even different from maker, which is kind of like no rules in a lot of ways, where were very slim roles. In the industrial space, you deal with the harshest conditions, which can be a challenge from an engineering standpoint, you’re not just dealing with does my network packet get from A to B or A to B to C, if you’re doing mesh networking, but you have to deal with these certifications called halt and has testing, which is shock and drop. So, vibration, shock, smashing, it was like a mallet, dropping it from like 10 feet or 5 feet on the concrete on every different corner. So, like 16 drops. Just a whole different realm of ruggedization. Not to mention the FCC and regulatory cert around radio transmission, which is everyone has to do, but you also have to do with your rugged enclosure to still make sure it transmits well.

There was one particular project where we had to make sure it would work in 180 mile an hour winds, because it was a product that would be using hurricanes for monitoring power poles being vertical or not. So, it was a challenge from an engineering standpoint, but also incredibly fun and there’s something very fundamentally satisfying as an engineer to see that exist. And I know we’ll use it again at some point. In fact, we already think we know where we’ll start to use it again in our new space.

Ryan Lawler: Right. So, you started in connectivity. Where does the blockchain part come in?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah. So, moving from maker to industrial was our first phase shift, if you will. We had a second phase shift as a company, which is moving from industrial into this specialized version of that. We had a fundamental engineering problem. And since we’re a pretty technical team, we focus on those and try to solve them, for better or worse. I sometimes think it’s a curse. But we fundamentally had this issue where some of our interested customers wanted to pay for our product for the use of it, not necessarily own it. In the corporate world, which was news to us, because again, we came from maker space, there’s a concept called capital expense and operational expense, right? They wanted to purchase this as an opex, they did not want to have it on their balance sheet, they did not want to have to train people, they didn’t have to end of life it and recycle it, erased. They just wanted to pay for use of our sensor network.

So, we were like, “Okay, I guess that’s fine. I guess we’ll just have them check in with a server, Netflix or Spotify style.” And they said, “Oh, by the way,” and some of these customers said, “We’re using these in places where there isn’t always cloud access or internet access, like on an open pit mine in the Australian outback.” So, we had this major problem, which was how do you enforce a recurring revenue model on a physical device, on or offline? And through a bunch of deep research, this is a very deep problem in computer science and distributed systems theory, it turns out that the blockchain solves a lot of that. And so, we brought the blockchain in as a component of a platform that would allow us to let these little devices self enforce their own contractual agreements. And thus, came about this new capability to film, it really has huddled around specifically since then. But it was very much like a scratch an itch, we have a problem.

Ryan Lawler: Right. But you were familiar with blockchain or at least theories behind it long before that.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Indeed. Yes. I’m one of those early nerds.

Ryan Lawler: So, talk me through sort of your background in that area and how you got interested? And shadow was this kind of like the maker story where it was just kind of like you were nerding out on …?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah. It’s funny, my spouse jokes on me, because there was this white binder I have at home which I started putting together around 2006, 2007, which has a bunch of really strange crypto-libertarian, cipherpunk like white papers and stuff. And this was pre-Bitcoin, right? Bitcoins 2009. And so, this had like a David Chaum, Chaumian e-cash, it had some early Ryan Fugger who made this early version of Ripple. It wasn’t our Ripple that we know of today, but it was the Ripple protocol. Very cool. Lots of very interesting things that I was just very fascinated about the ability to transact as a protocol, making economics a protocol. A lot like I learned with data and network protocols.

Every computer science major learns about the OSI model and all these things and stacks. But then it’s like no one really has ever talked about the eCommerce side or the commerce, I should say, the economic side. But what eCommerce did for the internet is like obviously just groundbreaking, right? We have Alibaba, we have Amazon, we have eBay, Craigslist, so many others that simply wouldn’t exist as companies if eCommerce didn’t exist within the internet. My big question was, what would it look like if hardware, physical devices, had the ability to transact instead of just communicate, but to actually transact economically, exchange value? That was completely compelling to me. I think the right word is that it haunted me for a while, it wouldn’t leave me alone. I would sleep and wake up thinking about it. I would go to sleep thinking about it, think about it when I drive, when I walk, et cetera.

So, this white binder still exists. It has a bunch of old notes with my younger self. This was quite a while ago, that’s been an inspiration. And I figured or I hope that someday I would be able to use that, or at least what I had learned. We didn’t really invent anything here. To a large part, we’ve used a lot of existing systems and built our own solution. We have a little bit of invention, some IP around that. But fundamentally, we’re standing on the shoulders of giants. The really early ones, the pre-Bitcoin ones. And I’m very pleased that it was able to make itself pack into our product today.

Ryan Lawler: That’s great. So, the idea now is that these machines can transact. They don’t need a human in between them. They’re just talking to each other.

Allison Clift-Jennings: That’s right.

Ryan Lawler: Which is pretty crazy.

Allison Clift-Jennings: It is, yeah.

Ryan Lawler: So, let’s talk about the hype, right?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Sure. Let’s get into it. Should put some waders on, some gloves? It’s pretty deep, I know.

Ryan Lawler: No. I think that everything that you’ve explained seems like very practical ways of building technology to solve real issues. And yet, because of the Bitcoin hype, because of the crypto ups and downs-

Allison Clift-Jennings: ICOs.

Ryan Lawler: ICOs, there’s a lot of skepticism about blockchain. There’s a lot of interest in it. But there’s also a lot of skepticism specifically because there are so many of these projects that now just look like BS. So, how does that affect what you do, or does it at all?

Allison Clift-Jennings: It does. It’s frustrating in many ways, because we have to parse through all that and try to somehow established or maintain our credibility in the midst of companies raising $40, $50 million in a token sale in a matter of minutes. But then going away a year later or joking, tweeting about Lamborghinis and it’s frustrating as a technologist. Because we want to solve problems. Like our team and our company, our ethos is very much around solving hard problems. That is what drives us. Money and value and returns and exits are … maybe I’m breaking the rules saying this, they secondary to our company. Solving hard problems, that is where we get our satisfaction.

And so, in some ways, we’ve kept our head very low and tried to stay off the radar. We do bring up the term blockchain. We call it the B word sometimes, right? Because in many situations, we won’t use that word when we’re talking about what we do. We’ll talk about value exchange, economics, eCommerce, machine economy, these other terms that are essentially the same thing, but we kind of avoid the whole like, Oh, are you selling tokens? And it’s like, oh Lord, no we’re not. We are not. Now, it’s true, and I have to be honest with myself and with you all that, I do want a fundamental machine medium of exchange. I would love a machine currency, because that actually lets us realize completely what we’re trying to build. But from a regulatory standpoint, we’re not there yet.

Ryan Lawler: So, what currency are you actually exchanging right now?

Allison Clift-Jennings: We’ve completely punted on that, and we’re blockchain agnostic. So, we can support multiple blockchain simultaneously. We’re like a hardware wallet. If you familiar with the hardware wallet concept. There are hardware wallets for people, trees, or ledger or some others, we are a hardware wallet for machines. So, we can support Bitcoin, Ethereum, any of the other number of public block chains that are coming out, all coins, as well as permission chains like Hyperledger Fabric Sawtooth. The only requirements is that we need to support the elliptic curves that blockchain uses, which is a piece of cryptography that is specific various blockchain. So, as long as they support some of the core ones, we can support them and we can do it simultaneously, which is kind of cool.

Ryan Lawler: Got it. Well, so you mention some of the applications. But let’s dig into that, in some of the use cases. How are people using your technology right now?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah.

Ryan Lawler: Or how are machines using them, I should say?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Right? It’s funny, we get this question a lot, because what does machine economy mean? It’s a pretty broad stroke statement. We’ve spent most of our time in two industries, vertical industries, because we just don’t have enough resources to do all of them. The first one is mobility, which is anything vehicles. So, anything with wheels, but really even rail to some degree. And then the other ones in energy. Both of these industries are very fragmented. And so, one of my favorite examples is in the energy space. In the renewable energy space, solar panels for instance, there is this concept called renewable energy certificates, RECs. RECs are common incentive. They’re a digital asset, much like a stock or an option, that as a unit of value that represents some renewable energy generated. Those can be bought or sold on marketplaces to incentivize people to create renewable energy, it’s kind of the inverse of a carbon credit.

But what happens today is as it was described to us, we did a proof of concept with an IDO down the street, actually, on Embarcadero. IDO and NASDAQ and Filament did a proof of concept of what it would look like if a solar panel issued its own wreck, rather than a human walking up to it, measuring it, looking at their Farmers Almanac and saying, this much sunlight falls in this part of the earth this year, and then doing some broad average. Instead, we wanted to actually generate in real time and have no human involved. This is machine economy, right? Solar panel economy in some ways. So, we hooked our sensor up, we did the digital asset generation, a per kilowatt hour generated, we measured voltage and current in time. And when you have those three, you can create the kilowatt hour. And then every kilowatt hour, we would treat a digital asset on device cryptographically, basically a token it’s what it is, and then it would be placed into the NASDAQ private markets marketplace, which was called Link, which is a blockchain based marketplace.

This then let that solar panel sell that immediately after it’s generally. And whoever deployed or owns that solar panel gets paid immediately like you would get paid for an eBay auction. He’s like, “Oh, I just got paid for something I was selling.” Except that it continues to pay. So, it’s a very cool way to start to automate an entire infrastructure that was very, very friction before.

Ryan Lawler: That’s cool. And you gave another example?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah, so we did one in mobility as well. So, in the vehicle space. A lot of people are familiar with the Carfax, right? This is like a vehicle history. This is a useful platform. In fact, I’ve used it recently in purchasing a vehicle, and it’s great because you can kind of see the history. But you don’t really know how much you can trust it, because it’s kind of one of these, as long as we grabbed a record that matched the VIN number, we can tell. We’ve been told stories about, for instance, in New York, the Hurricane Sandy issue. Entire dealerships got flooded, and instead of the dealers filing insurance claims and thus showing a Carfax record, they just fixed it on their own dime, no Carfax record. Polish it up, washed it, vacuumed it, and then sold it. But the electrical system was basically a lemon at that point.

So, trust in systems goes both ways. Everyone’s always thinking about the owner, the driver of the car being trustworthy or not in a sale. But what about the dealership? What about Volkswagen, right? So, Filament is also working with a major OEM right now out of Europe to basically make their vehicles blockchain native. And by extension, they can build entire new products on top of this platform. So, this isn’t necessarily us selling an end product to a customer, but it’d be us enabling vehicles to be natively trustable. So, this lets their business units like in their financial services build new leasing structures, very long extended warranties, because they can see the history of the car.

Ryan Lawler: Okay. So, we’ve talked about you having a few of these false starts and projects that didn’t really take off, but part of being a startup is having a limited amount of money and trying to make the most of it. How do you guys decide as a team What you’re going to work on?

Allison Clift-Jennings: There was a point in our history between our first and second round of funding where we had eight days of money left, which is terrifying. Our head of product, Jake, had just had a baby, he and his wife’s first baby, three months old. This was his first W2 job. He’d done contract work for a long time. And so, I’m sitting awake at night thinking about like, “Is he going to get a paycheck after next week?” That’s terrifying as a CEO. It’s like these are your friends, these are also your team and your employees, but they’re also your colleagues. And so, I never wanted to be in that position again.

After we got through that and managed to have some very good support from some investors to get us through that, I swore never to make that happen again. And so, everyone in our company every week knows the run out of money day at our company because we announce it, because it needs to be broadcast. We announce all of our finances internally, everything, so that everyone knows where we’re at, how much money we have in the bank, fundraising, et cetera. Because it is so important to keep focused and not follow exciting science projects that won’t lead anywhere. We’ve done that in the past, and it’s very dangerous. So, no more. But we do share full budgets. And so, each team has a budget. And we have actuals and we have budgeteds. And every week, PDFs come out of our accounting system.

Ryan Lawler: Every week?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Every week.

Ryan Lawler: Wow.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Posted to Slack. And you can look at … everyone gets to see everyone else’s. But it’s like everyone understands that money is not infinite at a startup, when you are transparent like that. And we found that it treats your team, I don’t really like to call them employees, it treats our team as adults. We’ve got a certain amount of money, we got to make this work with resources we have, so focus, say no to things, say yes to others. And every single time, they’ve risen to the occasion.

Ryan Lawler: All right. So, speaking of saying yes to some things, you recently came out with this blockchain enabled chip, I believe called Blocklet. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Blocklet is the name of the economic protocol stack? And again, remember these vertical stacks of information and data and trust and economics, it’s just a protocol stack which allows machines to be blockchain native, if I have a chip on or in them. We condense everything down into a single semiconductor, the smallest microcontroller we could use, that was still secure. The security is absolutely not negotiable. That’s what makes Blocklet testable. It’s what makes it economic. Because if you don’t have that trust, you don’t have anything else.

Allison Clift-Jennings: And so, we had this built into our other products, as Trojan horses. We took it out of that and just basically purified it into its base form. And it turned out to be a little tiny ARM Cortex chip with some semiconductor secure enclave within it. And so, we built this and right now we’re kind of in a hybrid mode where we have other people’s silicon wafers inside of our packaging and our SOC, and we’re driving heavily now towards actually making that VHDL, which is actual semiconductor code, to make your own custom integrated circuit basic. So, we’re running down that path very quickly. But that has become the new fundamental basis of our product line, which has been fantastic because we’re now getting more interest now than we did before with the industrial IoT, because people want economic capabilities for vehicles and trucks and things like that now.

Ryan Lawler: So, talk me through that. You have this microchip.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yep.

Ryan Lawler: You want to get into people’s machines. There are already a ton of machines out there that people are using and they’ve already paid for them. So, how do you get the technology onto those machines?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah, it’s the biggest question the industrial IoT space. Last way you look, 71% of industrial infrastructure globally across verticals is still disconnected. But it’s great they are assets that were paid for, capital assets, they work fine, they’re not going to replaced. Think of power poles and generators and things. We had to have a way to be able to connect to existing infrastructure. Without that, this is a no go. You can’t just greenfield all the new stuff and wait 20 years. It takes five years to get into a vehicle ECU, for instance, right. This isn’t the case, but if we wanted to get into Ford’s cars, then we would have to start talking to them now. And then in 2023, we’re in their stuff. That’s crazy. That’s another lifetime of a startup almost, right? At least a half a lifetime. Middle age, will call it. And so, we had to have ways to work with existing systems.

In an OEM standpoint, they may want to extend a warranty for 10 years instead of five, and they would sell that as a product to their customer who owns the car. And so, next service check comes in, “Hey, would you like the ultra-extended warranty for however much money, and will cover bumper to bumper for 10 years?” If they sign it and sell it, then they plug our device in, now they can track everything that’s happened on that car from performance history to service history to accidents to floods, because we have a humidity sensor and barometric pressure sensor in the device. We can track all that in a blockchain that is immutable and unchangeable by even the service center, by even the OEM. Everyone else play the same rules with this, which is the benefit. Because then they can go back and actually build these new products and the customer doesn’t have to trust the OEM to abide by the warranty, which is where a lot of problems happen in the warranty space.

So, this trust platform really lets these other companies start to build their own products on top of, which is the thing we missed before we were trying to sell to the customer before. And now this is allowing us to just build the platform on which they build their products.

Ryan Lawler: All right. One thing I’d love to ask everybody on the podcast is what’s one controversial opinion you have that you hold very strongly?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Cryptocurrencies will replace fiat currency. It’s just a matter of time.

Ryan Lawler: Okay. What leads you to believe that?

Allison Clift-Jennings: Because they’re more efficient, they’re cheaper. Fiat currency was a necessary requirement for economics to work for the last several 5000 years, 10,000 years, modern human history, but its own troubles. And it’s actually … we’re already seeing it now. It costs more to create pennies than the pennies are worth, right? I think it’s like, what, four or five cents per penny or something like that. The Federal mint is running at a loss, just to make the money, not to mention how to transact it, how to keep it. Cryptocurrencies, I’m not necessarily saying that governments will go away or Federal Reserve’s will go away, but they’ll all move over to cryptocurrencies at some point. It’ll become the de facto standard, because it works so well for that. Not a lot of people like that, and not all people are comfortable with that.

People also thought the fax machines wouldn’t go away. And here we are today, right? So, fax machines still exist in the healthcare space, but we’re essentially post fax now in many ways. We have email, we have Snapchat, we have pictures and text messages, MMS, et cetera. I think companies like R3 are trying to do exactly this in the financial space and I think they’re seeing some uptake with that. So, I don’t know, it’s controversial. I might be wrong, I’m often wrong, but we’ll see.

Ryan Lawler: So, just curious. I don’t mean to make you be target for hackers or anything, but so are you an early Bitcoin millionaire?

Allison Clift-Jennings: I am not a Bitcoin millionaire. I am one of those people who was really excited about it, and then did nothing with it. I’ll be the first to admit that I made … well, let me rephrase. I made enough money in cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, specifically ad Ethereum to pay for IVF for having a baby with my spouse and myself. To me, that’s probably the best thing I could have done with that, and that’s a pretty expensive endeavor. It’s usually in the order of you know, 10 to $20,000. But that to me, I don’t know if we have to name our child with some sort of weird middle name like ledger or something, but the truth is, is that I did make enough to do that. So, I don’t think that’s a millionaire move at all. It certainly isn’t. But it was important to me. My first Bitcoin I bought was at $100. I gave a friend a $100 bill, and then I asked him, “How do you transfer this Bitcoin to me, because I don’t know how this works?” This was 2011, ’10, I guess, ’11. It was when it was $100. And so, I was actually a little bit later to the Bitcoin game than most.

Ryan Lawler: Okay. So, if you weren’t working on Filament and if you weren’t in this space of industrial IoT and blockchain and connecting all the things, what would you be doing?

Allison Clift-Jennings: That’s such a good question. I have a list of things that I’m always interested in doing. So, assuming that money was no object or that I didn’t have to continue to have an income, I’m super fascinated when what’s happening in the machine learning space as it relates to music composition and music creation. So, the Google TensorFlow team has such a project called Magenta, that basically can listen to songs or read the music from the sheet music, and then generate new compositions that are in that style. To me, that’s magical. And I’m a big fan of music. I like to compose and play music. I’m totally an amateur, but I enjoy it. It’s kind of my second thing. I believe very strongly that I would like more people to experience the joy of creating music.

But many people are like, “I don’t know how to play an instrument or I don’t understand music theory.” And that’s fine, because you kind of need that. But at the same time, if there was a tool or an assistant, if you will, I dare not use the term prosthetic. But like if there’s some sort of helper that could assist someone into noodling around and starting to find something that they like to get that joy of listening, changing it in its feedback loop, that’s really fascinating to me. Now, there’s probably no business there at all. To be clear, it’d be a hobby. But I would probably go down that road.

Ryan Lawler: Okay. It’s hard for me not to be skeptical of machine learning oriented and now our creation.

Allison Clift-Jennings: I know.

Ryan Lawler: I love looking at like “I fed a bunch of scripts into this machine learning algorithm, and this is the trashy script that it’s spit back at me.”

Allison Clift-Jennings: Seriously. Like movie scripts and stuff like that?

Ryan Lawler: Yeah.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Yeah. It’s comical right now. But it really is. I’m with you. I’s kind of sad in some ways, because it feels like it’s one of the last human things we have. And I appreciate that. But at the same time, if it helps humans be more human, then I’m not sure it’s a bad thing. Kind of like glasses or pacemakers? I’m not sure. I don’t know. It’s a very good point you make.

Ryan Lawler: What does the future look like if you know Filament becomes widely adopted or ubiquitous?

Allison Clift-Jennings: It’s a future where there are like four different avenues of transactions. Today, we have humans and humans. We pay each other dollars, or PayPal, or Stripe, or Apple Pay or whatnot. This future where Filament’s devices allow the machines to participate let’s humans pay humans again. Not really our product, but they continue to do so. Humans can then pay machines, machines can pay humans, and most interesting, machines can pay machines. Now you have like four avenues, four routes if you will. Which is a future that excites us, because there’s so much friction. This is getting a little bit idealistic. But there’ is so much waste that occurs in the consumerist society.

I don’t think it’s purposeful necessarily, it just tends to be, you could argue a necessary evil, you could argue a lack of optimization problem, whatever. But when you don’t have to pay once for device anymore, and you can start to introduce the sharing economy concept to even smaller things, even like handheld tools or other small things, you don’t need to own any more to have the benefit of the thing. Because the maker of the thing can continue to be paid for the thing through these alternative means. And to me, that’s exciting because it reduces landfill waste, it’s dare I say gets us too closer to a post-consumer society, not necessarily bad things. And as we start to inch closer to population issues, it’s probably a good thing to start thinking about that now, to be responsible humans and to think about where we live and how we live together as a society.

So, it is somewhat idealistic, I recognize. But I do believe that the Filament platform allows for this possibility. Now, will people do it? Will people make it? I don’t know. I don’t get to control people. I’m glad about that. But we do want to provide at least opportunity for those who want to move into a perhaps a sharing or a sharing economy with their products to do so if they wish, but don’t have the means to do so today. So, I would like our chip and every single thing that exists. That’s a grand statement, but we’ll start with vehicles.

Ryan Lawler: All right. Well, Allison, thank you very much for joining us here today. It’s been great.

Allison Clift-Jennings: Thank you for having me.

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