Paramount futurist Ted Schilowitz on how tech will shape entertainment
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Paramount futurist Ted Schilowitz on how tech will shape entertainment

Visionary Ted Schilowitz speaks with Entrepreneur magazine editor-in-chief Jason Feifer on how technology—including AR and VR—will shape the future of entertainment. From the most out-there innovations to the grounding principle that story supersedes all, Ted shares his view of what’s next from his vantage point as Futurist in Residence at Paramount Pictures.

Jason Feifer: Ted Schilowitz is the Futurist In Residence at Paramount Pictures. Ted, thanks so much for joining us.

Ted Schilowitz: My pleasure. Thanks, Jason, for having me.

Jason: So Ted, we’ve got a lot to talk about. Paramount Pictures has been up to some pretty interesting stuff here at CES. Though to start… because, you have at once, one of the coolest titles I’ve ever heard, but also one of the most confusing titles I’ve ever heard. Can you explain what it is exactly that you do?

Ted: It’s a little confusing to me too. So, I’ve been in entrepreneurial zone, an entrepreneurial life, for a very long time. I was a production guy early on. I did a lot of children’s television production in Florida, and then I migrated into the technology as it related to storytelling and visualization when I moved out to the West Coast. I did a lot of stuff in a partnership with Apple, with a hardware company, and then I started a hard drive company that got very popular, and we sold it. And then I helped start this movie camera company called Red.

When I retired from that, a good close friend of mine at 20th Century Fox said, “We want somebody to help us look at the future. And we think cause you’ve done this kind of stuff before, would you be willing to do that?”

And, a lot of the questions were, “What exactly do you want me to do?”

And he said, “Well, you’ll figure it out.”

“Who do you want me to do it with?”

“You’ll figure it out.”

So, it was basically a job without a job. It was like, you kind of define your own, sort of, path. But, the goal was to see where the future would lie. And, the head guy at Fox at the time is now the head guy at Paramount. So, I did four years at Fox and now I’m over at Paramount, in the same role, as a futurist. Which is … it’s a little hard to explain.

At a lot of cocktail parties I get the, “So, what the hell does a futurist do?” question.

Which I often have to answer, “Well, you can sort of guess and you might be right.”

I have to explore a lot. I have to think a lot. I have to experiment a lot. But, I don’t necessarily have a direct path towards a goal set. My goal set is the exploration, is the learning, is the building relationships with new things and new companies, emerging technology that will relate to what does a story look like in the future. What does a movie look like in the future? What does a gaming or interactive experience look like in the future? And my future’s runway can be as short as just a couple years from now to 10, 20, 30 years out. But, it’s never particularly near-term. I’m always looking, at least, years out and sometimes many years out.

Jason: Do big brands like Fox and Paramount worry about the future in that way? Do they see that technology is gonna change in such a way that they think that the rug could get pulled out from under them and everything that these companies have been built upon — the ways that we tell stories are gonna change so radically — or do they see these as kind of incremental things? We should be playing in VR if people are playing in VR, but the meat of our plate is still always gonna be the two hour movie on a big screen.

Ted: So, it’s a bit binary in the sense that I think the smartest people that I like to surround myself with get that this isn’t a reactionary strategy. That this is a be ahead, catch things before they’re ready to be caught. Find out where the next turn might be in the road and be prepared for the unexpected.

Don’t be so worried about the direct, “Is there an economic future of this? Is a business future of this? Is there an audience for this?”

That stuff will come organically. If you do the right things at the front end, the back end will fill in.

Now, that doesn’t mean that there’s not a lot of hard work and a lot of smarts to make sure the back end works. But, if you don’t get the front end right, you have no chance to get the back end right. And, that’s when you miss it.

So, if you wait too long to look at new technology and how it kind of intersects with human behavior, which is really what I do for a living, like when it really comes down to the rubber meets the road — if you wait too long, you have to go into a reactionary mode.

You’re watching other people do it first, better, learn, and then you’re like, “Uh oh. We better get in on this game.”

You’ve already missed it at that point. So, the idea of finding it before its inflection point is really critical. And, I think the really smart movie studios have people that are dedicated to do this. I’m just lucky that I got to work with two very forward thinking ones, one previously and one now, that I would say are really on the forefront of that, more than the other studios.

They’re all doing it in some extent. There’s someone sort of like me at all the studios, but to my knowledge, there’s no one exactly like me. There’s not a mirror of me at some the other studios. There are definitely people that are looking at innovation. There are people at CES that come, but there’s no one that what I would say is their full-time job is to try and be a little kid. Is to try and just keep the most optimistic, most positive sense of what might be coming… and then put it into practice, and try and make things around that.

Jason: What have you learned being a forward-thinking, change minded person in a very large organization about bring change to a very large organization?

Ted: So, you know me a little bit. And, you probably got by my pattern, my sense, I tend to be a pretty diplomatic person. I like people. I like to interface with different types of people and different personalities. And, I like to try to help people see that none of this stuff needs to be all that scary. The unknown doesn’t have to be scary, it just has to be the unknown.

And, big organizations, no matter if its a movie studio, a big tech company, a big manufacturing company — the bigger you get, the more siloed you get, because just the natural attrition of, “People have jobs to do. You can only interface and learn so much.”

So, my tack and my strategy has always been, just be open to helping everybody as much as you can. It means you tend to spread yourself a little thin, so my wife and kids sometimes get mad about how many people I’m meeting with and running around interfacing with and traveling all over the world. I try and balance that as best I can.

But, at the end of the day, what you’re trying to do is take all those silos that are naturally somewhat important and break them down a little bit, so people feel comfortable talking about each other. And talking about the things that they might be doing together… and it shouldn’t be competitive within an organization. You should feel like you’re all heading toward the same ultimate goal, which is to, in the case of a movie studio, enchant and give joy to your customers that are gonna want to watch your content. And, if you come from that area of positive sense, you can accomplish really great things.

So, the goal is just be inclusive. Don’t say, “Oh, well because you’re not in my little group or in my working world, I’m not gonna show you my toys and you’re not gonna get to come to the VR/AR lab or the future lab.” Everybody can come. You know, we just schedule it and make sure there’s time for you. That’s all.

Jason: So, as a futurist, I, of course, am curious about what you’re seeing… Where you see the future of entertainment going and what impressive technologies you’ve come across that you think hold the most promise?

Ted: It’s a really good question, and here’s the way I’ll answer it. I answer this differently at different times. But, I think the thing that often gets forgotten at a big technology conference like this is that the essence of a good story is the essence of a good story. Meaning, we’re humans and we like to share stories. It goes all the way back to the campfire. It goes all the way back to the cave painting. We, as humans, like to tell each other things and share things both from an audio standpoint, from a visual standpoint, from an interactive and a tactile, you know, the physical standpoint. And, we’ve always done that for many, many, many generations.

So, if you start with really good story arc, story ethos, and you say, “I want to make something that will connect to the human experience like this.”

And then, what technology can I use to apply that? Because, what I often see is that people apply sort of slightly inappropriate technologies to things at the beginning of new technologies coming to fore.

And, the way we sort of argue it and talk about it in our world is with any new technology, spectacle tends to lead story. And spectacle doesn’t actually ever get you anywhere, right? It’s interesting for a little while. You know, we use the word gimmick, we use the word parlor trick, we use all these little fun little things to talk about what spectacle is because it’s fun. It’s fun to take your phone as a magic window, and I could put a little dragon next to you and he could talk to you and so forth and so on. And, that’s cute. I could, you know, put aliens out in all the seats. And, that’s cute.

Jason: The thing that crystallized that thinking to me was, I was once sent one of those cardboard VR things. As some company — I can’t remember what the promotion was … They sent me that and the video I was supposed to watch was the Haka, that New Zealand rugby or whatever it is thing and these guys doing this very cool thing. There is no reason to have a VR experience of that, because it’s all flat in front of me. If I turn here, I’m just looking away from them. If I look behind, I’m seeing nothing. The technology and the entertainment had nothing to do with each other.

Ted: So, you’re on the right track. What I always look for is, “What is the reason you did this and how are you compelling people to pay attention to this? Why do you want them to pay attention?”

And very often I see things … Like, there’s a lot of virtual reality, augmented reality stuff I see … I look at it and I go, “You know, this is actually great, but this would be way better as a podcast. Like, you didn’t do anything with the visual experience here that enchanted me or intrigued me more than the story you told from an auditory standpoint.”

Same way the other way. I would see these remarkable visual experiences, but they didn’t connect to my heart, to my soul. Like, I didn’t feel like I wanted to keep going. And, every year, there’s a few standout things in these new worlds of tech, that are emotionally charged, story charged.

So, I’ll give you an example of one of them, which is a Google spotlight story. So, it comes with a big tech company that has done pretty well for themselves, right? And, they’re taking an exploratory, experimental tack on some of this. And, they’re trying to productize, which is great. But, one of the things that they funded a couple years back is a small little VR story called Pearl. And, if you haven’t seen it, I recommend you see it. I recommend you see it in a Vive, because it’s spatial and you can move around in it. And, it’s a wonderful story. It’s like a little micro Pixar movie. It will pull your emotional heartstrings, and it will probably make you cry when you watch it.

Every time I watch it in a headset, and the headset has tears inside it, because it’s just exceptional. And, it’s so exceptional that we gave it an Emmy — I’m on the interactive Emmy board. And of all the things that were nominated, I was a big protagonist saying, “This one deserves an Emmy.”  Not because it was done in VR. Not because it was driving tech. Because, it was a great story that used virtual reality in a charming, wonderful way. And, it moved me and it moved a lot of other people.

I could give you five examples a year that get to that level, in some way. And, it doesn’t necessarily have to be enchanting in a good way. It could be extremely terrifying horror experience, which works really well in these new mediums. It could be some sort of travelogue or something that takes me on a place that I’ve never been able to go to and I could now go to it. But, it has to have the human connection or else it’s just tech, right? There’s no real point for that as far as I’m concerned.

Jason:  So you, with Paramount, debuted a few interesting things at CES today.  Which, I suppose you would say are good examples of marrying the technology with storytelling. Walk us through what some of those are.

Ted: So, probably the big announcement that we had this week was … We have a partnership with Intel to start to develop on a concept we call “volumetric capture.” And, I’m involved in volumetric capture on a number of ways. I’m involved in some startups that are doing this and some bigger companies that are doing this. It’s essentially … When you talk about the tech angle first, then I’ll talk about the reason… Is if you have a belief structure, like I do, that we are entering an age where the screen experience doesn’t necessarily have to be flat anymore, and it doesn’t have to have a border anymore, those are the less important parts of it. The most important part of it is that the screen can actually give you depth. And, I’m not talking like 3D depth. I’m talking about, I can physically move my body around inside the screen, which is why virtual reality, when it gets to the right level, is this very kinetic experience.

I often joke that what the best VR feels like you’re strapping a theme park onto your face. Because, in a theme park ride and the theme park experience, it’s spatial. It’s entertaining and they’re telling a story in the best rides. But, they’re taking you on a simulation, go on a ride vehicle or a walk-around experience.

Jason: It’s immersive.

Ted: It’s way more than just immersive. So, there’s a difference between the word immersive and the word spatial, which I like to sort of point out. So, you can be immersed in a movie and get a really, really big screen around you.

The next step after that is not just immersive, but spatial. Meaning, I can move around artificially in physical space. I can feel like I went from my chair to the other side of the hall to that spot to this spot, either by locomotion in some fashion or physically walking or getting into a ride vehicle, all virtually or in an augmented world.

So, we’re very successful at doing that with CGI graphics now. We can make artificial things that actually have three-dimensional depth, spatial depth. And, we can move around them. That’s what video games do, right? And now, with video games applying to VR and AR, we can literally move around inside our video game, which is pretty awesome.

The next step in the curve and the evolution is, “What if we could do that with actual video content? With actual real high fidelity picture content that wasn’t artificially created by a computer as a computer?” It was created by a computer as a camera that actually could capture you and it would feel like it was really you.

So, one of the things that we’re working on is with this very large technology company called Intel. And, they have a new studio stage that they have put this huge volume of cameras in. We’re the first studio to start exploring and experimenting with what would a story look like if we take, like one of the biggest directors in the world or a young, emerging director that will never make something called a traditional movie? And say, “Here’s this amazing sandbox where you can take objects that you used to have to capture as some sort of flat thing. We can force depth, but it’s not real.”

And now, the next step is, what if I could take all the actors in all the scenes and give them true volume, so you could walk around them just like the real world. And then you start to capture into something really interesting.

So, that’s the kind of stuff that we’re interested in. By the way, Facebook is really interested in it. They’ve announced some initiatives around spatial capture, volumetric capture. Microsoft is really interested in it. Google is really interested in it. And now, Intel is really interested in it. And, there’s this small little startup called Hype VR that I’m involved in that is also interested in it. A bunch of little startups, that are doing things.

So, between the tiny little startups that are raising capital and putting things into play in a really unique, clever, entrepreneurial way, to your point, and these giant monolithic companies, that at some point were just started in someone’s garage, just like a startup… You take those two worlds, you pound them together with a big old meat pallet and you say, “Don’t forget to make a good story here.”

And then, you got something.

And then there’ll be a period where you’ll never look back. You’ll be like, “I am never watching anything just on a flat plane of existence anymore. Because, why would I when I can move into this world? And somebody can tell me a compelling story like this.”

If you think about what we’ve always tried to do with digital storytelling, we’re trying to get a better illusion, a better magic trick, right? We add color to it, we add high fidelity to it, we add better, better, bigger, bigger screens, we make it feel more real to our eyes and our brains.

And now, we’re on the cusp of making the next thing more real to our eyes and our brains. But, if we don’t have the right camera capture technology to accomplish it, we’ll be stuck. We’ll be stuck with only artificial CGI things that can do that — which, I don’t think anybody wants. So, that’s why we’re putting so much energy into that.

Jason: Have you seen the story development process happen? As a content creator that really … it interests and totally puzzles me. I don’t know how I would begin to think about telling a story where the viewer could move around in the story.

Ted: It’s a really good and well discussed question, right? So, I think if you use the art and artistry and storytelling understanding of video games, modern video game logic, where you have the ability to move through worlds and experience things that are highly kinetic, but the best video games drive really good story in your brain. But, you’re an active participate in that story, right?

By the way, it doesn’t mean you’re not guided. The best directors of video games are guiding you through their version of this. And, they’re making you feel like you have free will and free choice. And, if they’re really good at it, you fully believe that you made all those choices.

But, actually you didn’t.

They know exactly what cues to pull on you, whether that’s making sure you’re shooting the right things, paying attention to the right things, hearing the right things, reacting to the right things, to drive you through it. Even in the most open world dynamics like Minecraft. And you think, well Minecraft’s just completely open world explanation. But, they’re guiding you through all these steps to learn how to do that and get really good at it. And find your own story. But, it’s all built with purpose in mind.

So, I guess if you say, “What is the new form of directing something?”

It’s finding its purpose. And, the best products that come out of this interactive world that we’re working in so refined now with VR and AR, are the ones that have real purpose. And then you kind of get there. So, you don’t have to be afraid of that. That happens.

Jason: I wonder if that also means putting together multidisciplinary teams? Because, if I was gonna put together a movie that’s spatial, I might want a video game writer on my team.

Ted: Yes, you’ll want technologist on your team, you’ll want humanists on your team, you’ll want psychologists on your team, and you’ll want video game crafters on your team. People that actually understand why a video game tells a really good story.

Funny story: I was at a really, really big presentation in front of a lot of fairly traditional media people that I would call Luddites.  And, they were making arguments to me about, “But movies tell stories and TV tells stories, but video games don’t really tell stories.”

I said, “All right. I’m gonna give you a little example and if you don’t get this, I’m happy to just leave the stage and we could just agree to disagree. But, I’m gonna tell you a story about the hero’s journey. And, this hero is lovable. He’s kind. He’s clever. He’s cute. He’s cuddly. And, he’s moving through a more and more difficult terrain that he has to navigate through. And there are bad things that happened to him on his journey. And, as he gets stronger, as he moves up through his learning of his life through this universe he’s traveling, his enemies get stronger and get harder and harder to escape and elude. And, they tend to be called ghosts in this journey. And, this little character, who have … You have completely fallen in love with by playing this game. As you and he get better, his enemies get better. Now, that’s a story, right?

Jason: Sure.

Ted: And, by the way, the story always ends badly. Sooner or later, our cute little cuddly hero dies. That’s PAC-MAN.

And, everybody kind of stopped for a second and went, “Oh yeah. I guess you’re right. The reason why I like to move that frickin’ joystick around for hours on end and try and get to the double banana level is because it’s the hero’s journey. And I’m helping my little hero escape the bad guys. Those four ghosts.”

That’s a story.

And, it’s a multi-billion dollar story in terms of why it works so well. And then, you start to look at a modern adaptation of kind of a journey, a story. And people often ask me, “Why do you think Pokémon Go was so damn successful? Is it because they used technology that was really smart?”

I’m like, “No, there were plenty of other things that use this same kind of camera based, move around, geo-located technology. It’s because, people love those characters and people love the arc of a story, where you can gather and train your things and meet up with people and find a human connection that helped you move along the story. And, as you got better, it got better. And, you were elevated to a certain status. It’s why people play Dungeons and Dragons and Magic: The Gathering. It’s cause you want a story. You want something that’s story connects with you at a very human level. And, technology and visualization support it. The better the visualization, the better the story can be.

Jason: Until you said ghosts, I thought you were going with Super Mario Brothers.

Ted: It could also be Super Mario Brothers.

Jason: That was what’s great about that story, is that it could be basically anything.

Ted: Anything. Donkey Kong, whatever. Sonic the Hedgehog, you know it’s all the same stuff.

Jason: As the technology evolves and storytelling changes, the places that people will engage with those stories change…

Ted: Yes. And, that’s a big reason that movie studios, mine, Paramount and others that are out there, the smartest, most thoughtful ones have a very high awareness of the change inertia of the fact that we can carry screens with us that are high fidelity. We can move them around physically and very, very soon it will make more sense to wear it in some fashion, then it will to carry it in our pocket. We’re right on the cusp of that starting to happen. And, you’re starting to see these companies that are getting very well funded, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, and big ones that are kind of hiding off in the corner, watching everybody else stumble around for awhile and then they’re gonna throw in.

But, technology is getting to a point where we can make it nimble enough and smart enough, that we can transpose what we used to say, “You can never put this anywhere, except a movie theater or a television.” And now we can say, “We can put this in a mobile, carryable world —  wearable world.”

Jason: Do we have gathering places in that world?

Ted: We do.

Jason: What do they look like?

Ted:  So, we already have gathering places in virtual worlds. Right? If you are a Xbox player or a PlayStation player, you can gather with your friends, many of which you may have never met in real life, wearing a headset, looking at an avatar, and that’s already a worldwide phenomenon. Hundreds of millions of people are playing in social environments, interacting with people, wearing a headset, talking just like you and I are talking. Feeling physicality without physicality.

Next step in the equation is when I can give them a spatial version, just like with games and stories, where they can feel some sort of physical embodiment. So, there are already groups experimenting this. VR chat, Altspace, Facebook spaces. There are people learning how to be social in an artificial environment. And, there are already companies starting to spring up that will scan you in at high fidelity. So you don’t have to have a cartoon avatar. You could be you. And, eventually guess where this gets applied. Volumetric capture.

So, right now it’s like super high end, extremely exotic, very professional. Only for people with big budgets and big movies to make in this new fashion. But someday, it’ll be something on your personal device. It won’t just be a camera that captures a flat image. It’ll be a camera that capture the volumetric image. So, you can shoot volumes of yourself and your friends, import them into your artificial spaces and we could do this, except I could be in Ohio and you could be in Tokyo right now. And, it would feel like we were just doing this.

And, the cameras that are capturing it out here, would also be volumetric. So, people that are sitting in the audience, could feel like they’re sitting in the audience. I’ve already done this. I’ve already done a virtual reality talk show with VRChat, years ago. And people sat and listened and asked questions.

And, I’ll tell you … here’s the really interesting thing: What was really strange about it is we did, like this open Q and A. And then we sort of moved from world to world, like you can do in VR and these various things. We got on like a, sort of a Grateful Dead bus and toured around and went to like a strip club and checked that out for a while. It’s like living in Ready Player One. And, what was interesting there was like this group of 40 or 50 people that were just, kind of, all with us. And, they were asking questions. And one person in the virtual world was a little too aggressive and started asking, sort of too many questions too fast. And, nobody else had a chance to kind of get in on the action. He was just, kind of starting to dominate the conversation.

Jason: There’s one in every crowd.

Ted: Yeah, right? So, here’s what happened. In the virtual world, as I was watching it from my perspective, I noticed the crowd, those 40 people, starting physically moving away from that guy. Just like what happens in the real world. Like, people were just like uncomfortable and eventually, he was all on his own. And then someone said, “You know dude, you’re asking like 200 questions and we all want to ask questions. So, that’s why we all left you.”

He was like, “Oh. Sorry.”

And then he like, walked over to the back of the crowd and everything was fine again. And, it was just like what would happen in the real world. It was fascinating to watch it play out.

Jason: That’s actually better than often what happens in the real world. What happens in the real world is that other people start to get kind of nasty or the speaker just leaves.

Ted: Yeah.

Jason: Which, I’ve also seen.

Ted: I didn’t leave. ‘Cause I thought it was fascinating.

Jason: It was like a better, self regulated system.

Ted: And it was self regulated. And, I think because people really wanted to stay in this experience, no one wanted to be too rude to the guy. You know, ’cause he wasn’t asking … He wasn’t really being a bad guy. He was just not really aware of the social contract that was happening.

So someone sort of said, “Dude. Social contract going on here.”

And he was like, “Oh. Okay, sorry.” And it was all okay after that.

Jason: So, we only have a few minutes left. What here should we check out [at CES]? What technologies, what new developments are you seeing right now that are really exciting? That, you know, I should go strap onto my head. Or whatever.

Ted: Sure. So, a number of things. So, I’m pretty involved in this next gen of augmented reality, mixed reality things that are coming. I spend a lot of time with this now less secretive company down in Florida called Magic Leap. And, they are coming. They’re not here, but they are definitely showing remarkable things. And I say, watch this space.

Jason: Worth the hype?

Ted: From my opinion, they are remarkable and they are doing remarkable things. So, keep a close eye on them. I am of the limited few that have firsthand knowledge of what they’re up to.

Jason: Yeah, no. Those words weigh.

Ted: It’s pretty great. We spend a lot of time with Microsoft and the HoloLens, which I actually love. There’s a company called ODG, that’s doing this great augmented reality experiences, very high fidelity experiences. And, that’s all on one side of the spectrum. Expensive-ish, exotic-ish, not for everybody yet, but soon coming for everybody, which is great.

On the other side of the spectrum, which I think is, in some ways, even more fascinating, there’s this young company, we’re in this area called Eureka Park, where like all the cool stuff happens, right? It’s a very young company. A start up that some kids out of USC started, called Mira.

And, what they’re doing is they’re using a phone, either an Android, a Samsung phone or an Apple phone, mounted like this, with these very sort of refined stereographic lenses. And, just by using your phone, you can get a very refined head-mounted, augmented experience, that will just get better and better over time. The device is going out to developers now. It’s gonna cost around $100. And then you add your phone to it. And, you can still see the outside world. The field of view is quite nice. And, the kids that have started it are really clever and really smart and very inspirational to me, ’cause they’re young and they’re going for it.

So, what we did as a kind of a first throw down with them, is we have movie that just came out, that’s a wonderful movie called Downsizing – a Paramount movie with Matt Damon in it. And, we let them use the trailer, to let them put the move trailer in this sort of floating theater experience that floats in space. So like, if I was wearing the device, I could have it right here in front of me. And, they said to me as they were starting, “Hey Ted, would you mind if we like experiment with this a little bit?”

I was like “Totally. Just know that if we hate it, no one will ever know about it.”

So, they did. And they showed me the work in progress. Keep going, we loved this. So, what they did is they took the Downsizing movie and the concept is, you shrink yourself and you shrink all your stuff. To have a better life and help other people. And, at some point as you’re watching the trailer, these objects show up, floating around is space. And one of them is like a giant mansion and a really big house. And then there’s food and there’s drinks and there’s different things and cars and stuff. And, you have a little controller clicker. So, you’re watching and it’s all happening in the real world. Like, I could do it and I could still see all you guys. And, you click on stuff, and the stuff shrinks down and downsizes. And, it’s very clever and it’s fun. It’s a little game. And, as you’re watching the trailer, which is still floating and telling you the story of the movie, you’re doing this little interactive play time.

And, at the end of the trailer, it shows you how much money you saved by downsizing all your stuff. So, it’s like you click, click, click, click, click. You saved $485,000 by doing this. So there’s a little story arc there. Totally works. The beginnings of something really interesting. And, it’s that kind of entrepreneurial spirit of these kids that aren’t afraid to try it, finding a market for this stuff, and utilizing technology that’s already out there and knowing that they’re just on pathway, right? So, not very refined yet. But, we’re in the refinement process. And, this thing is already pretty great. In its early stages. So, that’s one of the things that we’re doing.

Jason: And, that brings us full circle, in that you were talking about how important it is … Story comes first, the technology enhances the story and there’s a nice example where the technology is allowing us to engage in what feels like a very organic connection between our own experience and the story being told.

Ted: You got it. That’s it. That’s the path.

Jason: Well Ted, thank you so much for being here.

Ted: My pleasure.

Jason: Really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks everyone for being here.

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